Conversations with Roger

I have a really dynamic-thinker friend named Roger. For several years he has asked me the most difficult questions. I have deep regrets that I haven’t kept a file of what he asked and how I’ve responded, so I’m going to start one now.

Not trying to start a lengthy conversation, at least not by email,
but...
In reading the item about Daniel Gerber on page 10 of this newsletter it occurred to me for the first time that there may be a connection which I had not seen previously between what it takes for successful public engagement and what it takes for successful adult learning. At least, we have to believe in adult learning if we are to believe in deliberative democracy I think. If no change in people’s opinions occurs, of what value is engagement? Seeing this connection, I wondered if that is how you became interested in all this? Do you see deliberative democracy as just one arena for adult learning? Or are you all about the democracy piece? No need to get into this now but I am fascinated by the idea that what it takes for good adult learning is also what it takes, at least in part, for good engagement. Do you have your own set of best principles or practices for adult learning? Enough...
Roger

Roger-

--Once upon a time . . . . In my home, in my community, my high school . . . all the central places in my formative years I was introduced to "democracy" and democratic practices. I was a Girl Scout, and in innumerable organizations where we made choices, held elections. My father, especially paid a lot of attention to national and world events, always read the paper, watched the tv news shows, and talked about these things at our noisy dinner table. I don't know completely why I had a sense of "social justice", but I was always attracted to people who were concerned about poverty, civil rights, racial harmony, etc. The chaplain at my Methodist undergraduate university had gone to school with Martin Luther King, so Dr. King came to our campus along with a lot of other civil rights activists. I hung out with war protestors and people who were worried about the plight of Mexican farm laborers. One of my good friends was Baldemar Velazquez who led FLOC (Farm Labor Organizing Committee). It seemed he was always going to jail for leading protests on behalf of the workers. Perhaps because my father had been a Teamster I was pulled in this direction with my thinking. Baldemar, btw, eventually was awarded a $100,000 McArthur Award.

I also was always pulled toward teaching, which I did after graduating from Ohio Northern University. Then when I came to Georgia, I was naturally attracted to Adult Education, the League of Women Voters, and the feminists. There's a pattern here for sure. My major professors for both my masters and doctorate were committed to matters of social justice. Adult education had a natural connection because early on the field was committed to literacy and the preparation of immigrants for citizenry. Now I must say the field of adult education has lost its moral compass and many have sold their souls to the corporations in areas of human resource and organizational development.

I'm familiar with the work of Kolb and Malcolm Knowles (both these guys are in the article in your newsletter). Knowles is considered the father of adult education, and the guru for many. They are both a little mainstream for me, and my heroes and sheroes are more intentionally involved with social justice movements. Soon after completing my doctorate I was hooked up with Kettering because of my work in adult education where I had a chance to wax on like I'm doing now (even though you tried to steer me away for a lecturette) about what you can do to encourage adults to participate in civic forums.

I believe we are at a critical juncture as far as our democracy is concerned. If citizens don't wake up pretty fast, our democracy is going to operate more like at best a monarchy and at worst a harsh dictatorship. I think the message in Yankelovich's Coming to Public Judgment is accurate. As I think I told you before, I have the new book that he has written with Garfinkle, but I haven't had a chance to get into it.

So yes, once upon a time in my life there was a strong linkage between my enthusiasm for democracy and my enthusiasm for adult education. They divorced in the last decade, and I'm not sure we can get them back together. However, I've continued to encourage my former students (Pam, Vinny, etc.) to rekindle the relationship. Much that is in the early literature of adult education is inspiring and socially constructive.

For me, it comes down to whether or not as citizens we feel any responsibility for others. Too many people claim constantly their "rights". Too few address their "responsibilities."

If you do want to examine any of the adult education work that illuminates the best practices and principles, I'd be pleased to make recommendations.

Best, MHolt

Margaret,

Whew! A lot to digest here. I think we'll have to join that group you told me about in Athens so we can get to know you better. There's a lot to know!

The thing that struck me earlier was just the idea that there is an implicit assumption in deliberative democracy that people can change their views. That is a form of learning. If so, then the democracy field should be able to get from the adult learning field, how best to structure one's processes so that the change in views that one wants to take place actually takes place. I see this as important in a situation where polarization is commonplace and learning or changing seems to be the furthest thing from anyone's mind. How would you teach or move forward with polarized adult learners? How is that for a question! Roger

--Roger - You ask the toughest questions of any person I have ever met. Well, of course we do know that people change their views, therefore they can! Seriously look at how the views are changing about the Bush Administration and the Iraq War. But before you think I'm going to bash Bush, let me make it clear that I'm very disgruntled with the citizenry. Like many at the Kettering Foundation, I don't think the public is apathetic - but I do think there is a part of the public that is fat and lazy as far as informing themselves. We think we are great "educators" but we don't have the number of critical thinkers that I think our country really needs.

I think people allow themselves to get "polarized" because it's easier to make it through the day if you are sure about stuff. If you are completely sure about any policy issue one way or another, that says to me you haven't done your critical thinking. It fits in with my take on work done by people like William Perry on intellectual development. It's much easier and quicker to see things in dichotomies, but we know that real issues don't work out that neatly. That's why people like "expert" opinions. I don't have to do the hard work, if I leave all of this stuff to experts.

I believe people can learn, people can change, but the part I'm not so sure about and am kind of scared about is if it takes crises to whip people into paying attention. It's a bit like people working with folks addicted to drugs and alcohol talking about the need for some people to hit bottom. Does our society need to hit bottom before there is constructive change? It might be too late, if that's the case. Maybe really running out of oil, water, etc. is inevitable, and the majority of people won't take world events seriously until they personally suffer.

In adult education we have empirical studies related to people's learning and changing. Perhaps some of the most interesting literature has been around the concept the adult education folks called "perspective transformations." I think when you told me about "seeing your own lens" for the first time, that could be categorized as learning transformation. You talked at length about a changed perspective in meeting with the folks who had autistic children. So I took away from that conversation that you had learned something that caused you to think about an issue in a new way. In the psychological literature that I've scanned, I've learned that the concept of perspective taking is very intriguing. To me doing the Kettering work is very much about perspective taking. How much capacity do people have to actually consider the perspective of others conscientiously? Most of us get very wed to our own perspectives, so what elderly people, or Native American people, or disabled people, etc. think about something is not easily comprehended/considered. I think what you did when you were in that situation with the parents of autistic children is that you were able to honestly consider their lens. For all of us, this is very difficult to do. Nonetheless, I think we can help/guide others to learn to do this. If you want to read something "far out" that connects with this a bit, get a copy of Buddha in Redface.

I wish I had recorded all our conversations since I met you. You've asked the most challenging questions, and I really wish, I'd kept them in a separate accessible file.

Best, MHolt